Questions about sperm DNA fragmentation & SCSA test

Questions about sperm DNA fragmentation & SCSA test

Joined: January 13th, 2011, 3:54 pm

April 28th, 2011, 4:32 pm #1

Does anyone know if most RE's use this test to separate DNA fragmented sperm during IVF? Reading lots of articles that clearly show this to be the cause of many failed IVFs and early m/c's. Also read an article about how many couples with multiple failed OE IVFs will eventually resort to DEs only to have the same problems because of sperm DNA fragmentation.

Is this testing a standard practice, or should I ask?
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Mrs. A
Mrs. A

April 28th, 2011, 6:49 pm #2

and the response I got from all REs (including Davis and Check) was that it didn't matter because ICSI covered this. Still didn't make sense and I never ended up going through with it because of unexpected OE BFP that popped up. Dr. Check agreed to give me the orders for it. He thought that with my DH's amazing sperm and my great fert rates that this wasn't necessary but he was still more than willing to write the order for me. FYI - the test is done by an outside lab in South Dakota. I believe you can get this done yourself though without RE order. If you go on the DE board the ladies on there are very knowledgable about this test.

I say go ahead and ask if it's one more rock you want to look under. I think the cost is around $350.
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Jamie
Jamie

April 28th, 2011, 8:15 pm #3

Does anyone know if most RE's use this test to separate DNA fragmented sperm during IVF? Reading lots of articles that clearly show this to be the cause of many failed IVFs and early m/c's. Also read an article about how many couples with multiple failed OE IVFs will eventually resort to DEs only to have the same problems because of sperm DNA fragmentation.

Is this testing a standard practice, or should I ask?
Especially in your situation in which you have had low fertilization rates, I think it's well worth the money to check out. We had it done at CCRM as part of the standard workup.
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sch1star
sch1star

April 28th, 2011, 8:36 pm #4

and the response I got from all REs (including Davis and Check) was that it didn't matter because ICSI covered this. Still didn't make sense and I never ended up going through with it because of unexpected OE BFP that popped up. Dr. Check agreed to give me the orders for it. He thought that with my DH's amazing sperm and my great fert rates that this wasn't necessary but he was still more than willing to write the order for me. FYI - the test is done by an outside lab in South Dakota. I believe you can get this done yourself though without RE order. If you go on the DE board the ladies on there are very knowledgable about this test.

I say go ahead and ask if it's one more rock you want to look under. I think the cost is around $350.
Can embryologists see DNA fragmentation with the naked eye these days?
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Anonymous
Anonymous

April 29th, 2011, 12:56 am #5

and the response I got from all REs (including Davis and Check) was that it didn't matter because ICSI covered this. Still didn't make sense and I never ended up going through with it because of unexpected OE BFP that popped up. Dr. Check agreed to give me the orders for it. He thought that with my DH's amazing sperm and my great fert rates that this wasn't necessary but he was still more than willing to write the order for me. FYI - the test is done by an outside lab in South Dakota. I believe you can get this done yourself though without RE order. If you go on the DE board the ladies on there are very knowledgable about this test.

I say go ahead and ask if it's one more rock you want to look under. I think the cost is around $350.
And that actually ICSI had been working against us, forcing bad sperm to fertilize eggs. After DHs sperm frag test (Cooper ordered) came back bad, Check reviewed our past cycles (all ICSI) and pretty much concluded that MF had been the problem all along. It was pretty unfortunate that we even had embryos and early losses, no natural pg ever, Check thought this was because the damaged sperm was being forced by ICSI, that those embryos never would have happened naturally.



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Joined: January 13th, 2011, 3:54 pm

April 29th, 2011, 2:12 am #6

Does anyone know if most RE's use this test to separate DNA fragmented sperm during IVF? Reading lots of articles that clearly show this to be the cause of many failed IVFs and early m/c's. Also read an article about how many couples with multiple failed OE IVFs will eventually resort to DEs only to have the same problems because of sperm DNA fragmentation.

Is this testing a standard practice, or should I ask?
Yes...regular ICSI does work against us if we have a MF of sperm with DNA fragmentation. And yes schstar is correct that there is no way to see this fragmentation with the naked eye (or even with a microscope.) I have been researching (as I do all the time!) and there appears to be several methods for sorting out the bad sperm from the good. Most use a chemical solution that is made up of the acid that surrounds the egg. There is also some kind of a sorting device. But I think that almost all of them are called PICSI. The P stands for physiological, I think.

So now the question is (drumroll please).......why did I not do this for my IVF? My 4 precious, sad little eggies that I worked so hard to make and they just threw any old sperm in there??? There are two things that all of us don't have alot of...time and eggs. And by using sperm with bad DNA we are wasting both (not to mention money!). What is really frustrating is that in many other parts of the world, this is standard practice! So far I have only heard of 2-3 places that do this regularly in the US. CCRM being one.
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Joined: January 13th, 2011, 3:54 pm

April 29th, 2011, 2:40 am #7

and the response I got from all REs (including Davis and Check) was that it didn't matter because ICSI covered this. Still didn't make sense and I never ended up going through with it because of unexpected OE BFP that popped up. Dr. Check agreed to give me the orders for it. He thought that with my DH's amazing sperm and my great fert rates that this wasn't necessary but he was still more than willing to write the order for me. FYI - the test is done by an outside lab in South Dakota. I believe you can get this done yourself though without RE order. If you go on the DE board the ladies on there are very knowledgable about this test.

I say go ahead and ask if it's one more rock you want to look under. I think the cost is around $350.
Mrs. A I don't know why I posted on the over 40 board! I meant to post on the DE board as you suggested! This whole IF thing has made my brain wacky.
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Mrs. A
Mrs. A

April 29th, 2011, 2:43 pm #8

those ladies are just as knowledgeable. just recommended the DE board because I know that those ladies have loads more experience with it.
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Mrs. A
Mrs. A

April 29th, 2011, 2:54 pm #9

And that actually ICSI had been working against us, forcing bad sperm to fertilize eggs. After DHs sperm frag test (Cooper ordered) came back bad, Check reviewed our past cycles (all ICSI) and pretty much concluded that MF had been the problem all along. It was pretty unfortunate that we even had embryos and early losses, no natural pg ever, Check thought this was because the damaged sperm was being forced by ICSI, that those embryos never would have happened naturally.


In my case, my DH's SAs (done at 2 local clinics plus one at Cooper and one at Cornell) all came back excellent. And my fert rates with and without ICSI have also been great. The opinions were that there is nothing wrong with the sperm (based on SA and fert) and that the bad embies are due to my poor egg quality. So no need for DNA frag and that if I had bad natural fert then ICSI would take care of that. Again, the presumption (right or wrong) being that there's nothing wrong with the sperm. In your case it sounds like you had MF to begin with and therefore it made sense to pursue DNA frag.

I'll be speaking to Check in about 2 weeks so I'll get more info then for curiosity's sake.

But as I mentioned in my earlier post, Dr. Check was more than happy to write the order for me to get the DNA frag done anyway. As he put it, he didn't want me coming after him should my donor eggs not fertilize for some wild reason.
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Mrs. A
Mrs. A

April 29th, 2011, 2:58 pm #10

Yes...regular ICSI does work against us if we have a MF of sperm with DNA fragmentation. And yes schstar is correct that there is no way to see this fragmentation with the naked eye (or even with a microscope.) I have been researching (as I do all the time!) and there appears to be several methods for sorting out the bad sperm from the good. Most use a chemical solution that is made up of the acid that surrounds the egg. There is also some kind of a sorting device. But I think that almost all of them are called PICSI. The P stands for physiological, I think.

So now the question is (drumroll please).......why did I not do this for my IVF? My 4 precious, sad little eggies that I worked so hard to make and they just threw any old sperm in there??? There are two things that all of us don't have alot of...time and eggs. And by using sperm with bad DNA we are wasting both (not to mention money!). What is really frustrating is that in many other parts of the world, this is standard practice! So far I have only heard of 2-3 places that do this regularly in the US. CCRM being one.
sorry I don't recall. And I see Jamie mentioned you had low fert rates in your IVF. Is that the case? And you had ICSI done?

If so then it definitely makes sense. But regardless, I'll tell you what Check told me, if it's going to give you peace of mind and you don't mind spending the $350, go for it.
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