Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

Joined: March 19th, 2002, 2:59 am

December 15th, 2008, 6:32 pm #31

I do not think that too many Net54ers will argue with me that Eddie Foster is probably the toughest of the 48 cards in the
Southern League (SL) series. It seems that all SL players were not equally printed.
First, here are the four different SL represented......

1st release......with Brown HINDU, OLD MILL, PIEDMONT backs

South Atlantic League (10 subjects)
Southern League (20 Subjects)
Virginia League (12 Subjects)

2nd release......with OLD MILL, PIEDMONT backs

Texas League (6 Subjects)

Now, a close 2nd in scarcity to Foster is teammate, George Paige. These 2 players were on Charleston of the So. Atl. Lge.
This League had difficulties which resulted in a "split-season". The 1st half of the 1909 season was won by Chattanooga.
On 7/5/09 the Charleston franchise became the Knoxville team. I'd venture to say that this change caused Foster and Paige
to be short-printed.
In addition, Kiernan and Manion were involved in mid-season trades, as a consequence of the changes in this League. These
two are also tougher to find than most of the other SL cards. At the end of the 1909 season Chattanooga and Augusta (the
winner of the 2nd half) played a League Series and Chattanooga won 4 of the 7 game series.



From the Virginia Lge. Revelle is tough to find. He was an outstanding pitcher for Richmond in 1909 with a 29-11 W-L record.

From the Southern League, the three New Orleans guys are quite tough....Breitenstein, Fritz, and Reagan.

To summarize, here is my list of the top 12 tougher SL cards (regardless of backs) in order of scarcity......

Foster
Paige
Fritz
Revelle
Hart (Little Rock)
Manion
Breitenstein
Greminger
Ellam
Reagan
Kiernan
LaFitte

Some of you may differ, and I welcome any debate.


Regarding the very tough Brown HINDU backs (possible on the 1st 42 players in this series). The first 42 SL cards were issued
shortly after the general 150 Series cards were available (Spring of 1909). This fact is confirmed by the date of the Charleston
players mentioned in the above story. The very 1st SL cards were printed with the HINDU backs.

There are 34 of the 42 SL cards that have been confirmed with the HINDU back. The following 8 have not......

Hart (Little Rock)....No Print
Hart (Montgomery).....No Print
King......No Print
Lentz......No Print
Orth.......Possible Print
Rockenfeld......Possible Print
Seitz......Possible Print
Westlake......No Print


TRIVIA quiz......

In this HINDU adv. three SL cards are displayed....one is incorrectly pictured....who will be the 1st one to identify this error ?

And, who is the actual BB subject shown ? ?





TED Z
Hi Ted,
I was wondering when you were going to laugh....

Have a great day. Be well Brian


PS He must have been a good teacher, as you made it to the Majors on your T206 card...
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Joined: January 14th, 2007, 8:51 pm

December 15th, 2008, 6:35 pm #32

I do not think that too many Net54ers will argue with me that Eddie Foster is probably the toughest of the 48 cards in the
Southern League (SL) series. It seems that all SL players were not equally printed.
First, here are the four different SL represented......

1st release......with Brown HINDU, OLD MILL, PIEDMONT backs

South Atlantic League (10 subjects)
Southern League (20 Subjects)
Virginia League (12 Subjects)

2nd release......with OLD MILL, PIEDMONT backs

Texas League (6 Subjects)

Now, a close 2nd in scarcity to Foster is teammate, George Paige. These 2 players were on Charleston of the So. Atl. Lge.
This League had difficulties which resulted in a "split-season". The 1st half of the 1909 season was won by Chattanooga.
On 7/5/09 the Charleston franchise became the Knoxville team. I'd venture to say that this change caused Foster and Paige
to be short-printed.
In addition, Kiernan and Manion were involved in mid-season trades, as a consequence of the changes in this League. These
two are also tougher to find than most of the other SL cards. At the end of the 1909 season Chattanooga and Augusta (the
winner of the 2nd half) played a League Series and Chattanooga won 4 of the 7 game series.



From the Virginia Lge. Revelle is tough to find. He was an outstanding pitcher for Richmond in 1909 with a 29-11 W-L record.

From the Southern League, the three New Orleans guys are quite tough....Breitenstein, Fritz, and Reagan.

To summarize, here is my list of the top 12 tougher SL cards (regardless of backs) in order of scarcity......

Foster
Paige
Fritz
Revelle
Hart (Little Rock)
Manion
Breitenstein
Greminger
Ellam
Reagan
Kiernan
LaFitte

Some of you may differ, and I welcome any debate.


Regarding the very tough Brown HINDU backs (possible on the 1st 42 players in this series). The first 42 SL cards were issued
shortly after the general 150 Series cards were available (Spring of 1909). This fact is confirmed by the date of the Charleston
players mentioned in the above story. The very 1st SL cards were printed with the HINDU backs.

There are 34 of the 42 SL cards that have been confirmed with the HINDU back. The following 8 have not......

Hart (Little Rock)....No Print
Hart (Montgomery).....No Print
King......No Print
Lentz......No Print
Orth.......Possible Print
Rockenfeld......Possible Print
Seitz......Possible Print
Westlake......No Print


TRIVIA quiz......

In this HINDU adv. three SL cards are displayed....one is incorrectly pictured....who will be the 1st one to identify this error ?

And, who is the actual BB subject shown ? ?





TED Z
Nuxhall was 15 years, 316 days old when he made his major-league debut.
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Joined: April 6th, 2005, 9:38 pm

December 15th, 2008, 7:39 pm #33

I do not think that too many Net54ers will argue with me that Eddie Foster is probably the toughest of the 48 cards in the
Southern League (SL) series. It seems that all SL players were not equally printed.
First, here are the four different SL represented......

1st release......with Brown HINDU, OLD MILL, PIEDMONT backs

South Atlantic League (10 subjects)
Southern League (20 Subjects)
Virginia League (12 Subjects)

2nd release......with OLD MILL, PIEDMONT backs

Texas League (6 Subjects)

Now, a close 2nd in scarcity to Foster is teammate, George Paige. These 2 players were on Charleston of the So. Atl. Lge.
This League had difficulties which resulted in a "split-season". The 1st half of the 1909 season was won by Chattanooga.
On 7/5/09 the Charleston franchise became the Knoxville team. I'd venture to say that this change caused Foster and Paige
to be short-printed.
In addition, Kiernan and Manion were involved in mid-season trades, as a consequence of the changes in this League. These
two are also tougher to find than most of the other SL cards. At the end of the 1909 season Chattanooga and Augusta (the
winner of the 2nd half) played a League Series and Chattanooga won 4 of the 7 game series.



From the Virginia Lge. Revelle is tough to find. He was an outstanding pitcher for Richmond in 1909 with a 29-11 W-L record.

From the Southern League, the three New Orleans guys are quite tough....Breitenstein, Fritz, and Reagan.

To summarize, here is my list of the top 12 tougher SL cards (regardless of backs) in order of scarcity......

Foster
Paige
Fritz
Revelle
Hart (Little Rock)
Manion
Breitenstein
Greminger
Ellam
Reagan
Kiernan
LaFitte

Some of you may differ, and I welcome any debate.


Regarding the very tough Brown HINDU backs (possible on the 1st 42 players in this series). The first 42 SL cards were issued
shortly after the general 150 Series cards were available (Spring of 1909). This fact is confirmed by the date of the Charleston
players mentioned in the above story. The very 1st SL cards were printed with the HINDU backs.

There are 34 of the 42 SL cards that have been confirmed with the HINDU back. The following 8 have not......

Hart (Little Rock)....No Print
Hart (Montgomery).....No Print
King......No Print
Lentz......No Print
Orth.......Possible Print
Rockenfeld......Possible Print
Seitz......Possible Print
Westlake......No Print


TRIVIA quiz......

In this HINDU adv. three SL cards are displayed....one is incorrectly pictured....who will be the 1st one to identify this error ?

And, who is the actual BB subject shown ? ?





TED Z
I was the star Rightfielder in HS.....big on defense, short on offense (except a well-placed bunt
and hit many Triples to the opposite field).

My arm was my big advantage....I could accurately throw a BB 250+ feet on a line; thus, I had
many PutOuts; and saved a few games at that.

However, not good enough for the local semi-pro league.

Be good ole buddy,

TED Z

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Joined: September 30th, 2005, 9:18 pm

December 15th, 2008, 11:00 pm #34

I do not think that too many Net54ers will argue with me that Eddie Foster is probably the toughest of the 48 cards in the
Southern League (SL) series. It seems that all SL players were not equally printed.
First, here are the four different SL represented......

1st release......with Brown HINDU, OLD MILL, PIEDMONT backs

South Atlantic League (10 subjects)
Southern League (20 Subjects)
Virginia League (12 Subjects)

2nd release......with OLD MILL, PIEDMONT backs

Texas League (6 Subjects)

Now, a close 2nd in scarcity to Foster is teammate, George Paige. These 2 players were on Charleston of the So. Atl. Lge.
This League had difficulties which resulted in a "split-season". The 1st half of the 1909 season was won by Chattanooga.
On 7/5/09 the Charleston franchise became the Knoxville team. I'd venture to say that this change caused Foster and Paige
to be short-printed.
In addition, Kiernan and Manion were involved in mid-season trades, as a consequence of the changes in this League. These
two are also tougher to find than most of the other SL cards. At the end of the 1909 season Chattanooga and Augusta (the
winner of the 2nd half) played a League Series and Chattanooga won 4 of the 7 game series.



From the Virginia Lge. Revelle is tough to find. He was an outstanding pitcher for Richmond in 1909 with a 29-11 W-L record.

From the Southern League, the three New Orleans guys are quite tough....Breitenstein, Fritz, and Reagan.

To summarize, here is my list of the top 12 tougher SL cards (regardless of backs) in order of scarcity......

Foster
Paige
Fritz
Revelle
Hart (Little Rock)
Manion
Breitenstein
Greminger
Ellam
Reagan
Kiernan
LaFitte

Some of you may differ, and I welcome any debate.


Regarding the very tough Brown HINDU backs (possible on the 1st 42 players in this series). The first 42 SL cards were issued
shortly after the general 150 Series cards were available (Spring of 1909). This fact is confirmed by the date of the Charleston
players mentioned in the above story. The very 1st SL cards were printed with the HINDU backs.

There are 34 of the 42 SL cards that have been confirmed with the HINDU back. The following 8 have not......

Hart (Little Rock)....No Print
Hart (Montgomery).....No Print
King......No Print
Lentz......No Print
Orth.......Possible Print
Rockenfeld......Possible Print
Seitz......Possible Print
Westlake......No Print


TRIVIA quiz......

In this HINDU adv. three SL cards are displayed....one is incorrectly pictured....who will be the 1st one to identify this error ?

And, who is the actual BB subject shown ? ?





TED Z
Very interesting thread.

Any theories on why KING and WESTLAKE are the easiest southern leaguers to obtain?

Any connection to the fact that they are both depicted with Danville?

(I checked and Danville did not win the VL championship in 1908 or 1909--so that would not seem to account for it).

Any connection to the fact that they are two of only a handful of Hindu no-prints among the 42 South Atlantic League, Southern Association and Virginia League subjects?

Could it be that these two were released along with the six Texas Leaguers in the 350 series--and thus (along with the six Texas Leaguers) experienced an extended print run in that series?

Jamie, Ted, Brian--anyone?

EDITED IN SEVERAL ATTEMPTS TO REDUCE WINDOW SIZE
Last edited by sreader3 on December 15th, 2008, 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: April 6th, 2005, 9:38 pm

December 16th, 2008, 12:30 am #35

I do not think that too many Net54ers will argue with me that Eddie Foster is probably the toughest of the 48 cards in the
Southern League (SL) series. It seems that all SL players were not equally printed.
First, here are the four different SL represented......

1st release......with Brown HINDU, OLD MILL, PIEDMONT backs

South Atlantic League (10 subjects)
Southern League (20 Subjects)
Virginia League (12 Subjects)

2nd release......with OLD MILL, PIEDMONT backs

Texas League (6 Subjects)

Now, a close 2nd in scarcity to Foster is teammate, George Paige. These 2 players were on Charleston of the So. Atl. Lge.
This League had difficulties which resulted in a "split-season". The 1st half of the 1909 season was won by Chattanooga.
On 7/5/09 the Charleston franchise became the Knoxville team. I'd venture to say that this change caused Foster and Paige
to be short-printed.
In addition, Kiernan and Manion were involved in mid-season trades, as a consequence of the changes in this League. These
two are also tougher to find than most of the other SL cards. At the end of the 1909 season Chattanooga and Augusta (the
winner of the 2nd half) played a League Series and Chattanooga won 4 of the 7 game series.



From the Virginia Lge. Revelle is tough to find. He was an outstanding pitcher for Richmond in 1909 with a 29-11 W-L record.

From the Southern League, the three New Orleans guys are quite tough....Breitenstein, Fritz, and Reagan.

To summarize, here is my list of the top 12 tougher SL cards (regardless of backs) in order of scarcity......

Foster
Paige
Fritz
Revelle
Hart (Little Rock)
Manion
Breitenstein
Greminger
Ellam
Reagan
Kiernan
LaFitte

Some of you may differ, and I welcome any debate.


Regarding the very tough Brown HINDU backs (possible on the 1st 42 players in this series). The first 42 SL cards were issued
shortly after the general 150 Series cards were available (Spring of 1909). This fact is confirmed by the date of the Charleston
players mentioned in the above story. The very 1st SL cards were printed with the HINDU backs.

There are 34 of the 42 SL cards that have been confirmed with the HINDU back. The following 8 have not......

Hart (Little Rock)....No Print
Hart (Montgomery).....No Print
King......No Print
Lentz......No Print
Orth.......Possible Print
Rockenfeld......Possible Print
Seitz......Possible Print
Westlake......No Print


TRIVIA quiz......

In this HINDU adv. three SL cards are displayed....one is incorrectly pictured....who will be the 1st one to identify this error ?

And, who is the actual BB subject shown ? ?





TED Z
Thanks for returning this thread on topic. Lets examine the list of (so far) unconfirmed HINDU Southern
Leaguers (SL)......

Hart (Little Rock)
Lentz (Little Rock)
King (Danville)
Westlake (Danville)

I'm almost certain that Danville and Little Rock players were not printed with Hindu backs. I think Brian W
will disagree with me regarding King. And, Brian is certainly our expert on this category; perhaps, he will
chime in on this.

And, these 2 also fall into the No-PRINT category.

Hart (Montgomery)
Orth


So, that leaves us with these two........

Rockenfeld
Seitz......led the Virginia League in batting in 1909 with a BA = .328

All this, if true, neatly conforms to a basic common denominator of six Subjects in the printing process
of the SL cards. Consider the Texas Lge. Subjects, there are only 6. Therefore, we can expect that 36
Subjects were printed with HINDU backs.


TED Z

Last edited by tedzan on December 19th, 2008, 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: March 19th, 2002, 2:59 am

December 16th, 2008, 12:56 am #36

I do not think that too many Net54ers will argue with me that Eddie Foster is probably the toughest of the 48 cards in the
Southern League (SL) series. It seems that all SL players were not equally printed.
First, here are the four different SL represented......

1st release......with Brown HINDU, OLD MILL, PIEDMONT backs

South Atlantic League (10 subjects)
Southern League (20 Subjects)
Virginia League (12 Subjects)

2nd release......with OLD MILL, PIEDMONT backs

Texas League (6 Subjects)

Now, a close 2nd in scarcity to Foster is teammate, George Paige. These 2 players were on Charleston of the So. Atl. Lge.
This League had difficulties which resulted in a "split-season". The 1st half of the 1909 season was won by Chattanooga.
On 7/5/09 the Charleston franchise became the Knoxville team. I'd venture to say that this change caused Foster and Paige
to be short-printed.
In addition, Kiernan and Manion were involved in mid-season trades, as a consequence of the changes in this League. These
two are also tougher to find than most of the other SL cards. At the end of the 1909 season Chattanooga and Augusta (the
winner of the 2nd half) played a League Series and Chattanooga won 4 of the 7 game series.



From the Virginia Lge. Revelle is tough to find. He was an outstanding pitcher for Richmond in 1909 with a 29-11 W-L record.

From the Southern League, the three New Orleans guys are quite tough....Breitenstein, Fritz, and Reagan.

To summarize, here is my list of the top 12 tougher SL cards (regardless of backs) in order of scarcity......

Foster
Paige
Fritz
Revelle
Hart (Little Rock)
Manion
Breitenstein
Greminger
Ellam
Reagan
Kiernan
LaFitte

Some of you may differ, and I welcome any debate.


Regarding the very tough Brown HINDU backs (possible on the 1st 42 players in this series). The first 42 SL cards were issued
shortly after the general 150 Series cards were available (Spring of 1909). This fact is confirmed by the date of the Charleston
players mentioned in the above story. The very 1st SL cards were printed with the HINDU backs.

There are 34 of the 42 SL cards that have been confirmed with the HINDU back. The following 8 have not......

Hart (Little Rock)....No Print
Hart (Montgomery).....No Print
King......No Print
Lentz......No Print
Orth.......Possible Print
Rockenfeld......Possible Print
Seitz......Possible Print
Westlake......No Print


TRIVIA quiz......

In this HINDU adv. three SL cards are displayed....one is incorrectly pictured....who will be the 1st one to identify this error ?

And, who is the actual BB subject shown ? ?





TED Z
Hi Ted,
Actually.... I now believe that only 34 Southern Leaguers were printed with Hindu backs...

Harry Bay Nashville
Bill Bernhard Nashville
Ted Breitenstein New Orleans
Scoops Carey Memphis
Cad Coles Augusta
Bill Cranston Memphis
Roy Ellam Nashville
Ed Foster Charleston
Charlie Fritz New Orleans
Ed Greminger Montgomery
Tom Guiheen Portsmouth
J. Ross Helm Columbus
Gordon Hickman Mobile
Bock Hooker Lynchburg
Ernie Howard Savannah
A. O. (Dutch) Jordan Atlanta
J.F. Kiernan Columbia
James Lafitte Macon
Perry Lipe Richmond
George Manion Columbia
Pat McCauley Portsmouth
Carlton Molesworth Birmingham
Dom Mullaney Jacksonville
William Otey Norfolk
George Paige Charleston
Hub Perdue Nashville
Arch Persons Montgomery
Ed Reagan New Orleans
Dutch Revelle Richmond
Ray Ryan Roanoke
Shag Shaughnessy Roanoke
Sid Smith Atlanta
Woodie Thornton Mobile
Juan Violat Jacksonville

These 4 were thought to exist:
Frank King Danville
Charles Seitz Norfolk
Ike Rockenfeld Montgomery
James Westlake Danville

But in my opinion do not.... I thought I saw a Rockenfeld a few years ago on EBay, but after doing a bit of research think I was mistaken.

Be well Brian

PS Ted T206's are never neat and tidy.... 36 would be so much easier than 34.......





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Joined: October 11th, 2005, 12:09 am

December 16th, 2008, 2:52 am #37

I do not think that too many Net54ers will argue with me that Eddie Foster is probably the toughest of the 48 cards in the
Southern League (SL) series. It seems that all SL players were not equally printed.
First, here are the four different SL represented......

1st release......with Brown HINDU, OLD MILL, PIEDMONT backs

South Atlantic League (10 subjects)
Southern League (20 Subjects)
Virginia League (12 Subjects)

2nd release......with OLD MILL, PIEDMONT backs

Texas League (6 Subjects)

Now, a close 2nd in scarcity to Foster is teammate, George Paige. These 2 players were on Charleston of the So. Atl. Lge.
This League had difficulties which resulted in a "split-season". The 1st half of the 1909 season was won by Chattanooga.
On 7/5/09 the Charleston franchise became the Knoxville team. I'd venture to say that this change caused Foster and Paige
to be short-printed.
In addition, Kiernan and Manion were involved in mid-season trades, as a consequence of the changes in this League. These
two are also tougher to find than most of the other SL cards. At the end of the 1909 season Chattanooga and Augusta (the
winner of the 2nd half) played a League Series and Chattanooga won 4 of the 7 game series.



From the Virginia Lge. Revelle is tough to find. He was an outstanding pitcher for Richmond in 1909 with a 29-11 W-L record.

From the Southern League, the three New Orleans guys are quite tough....Breitenstein, Fritz, and Reagan.

To summarize, here is my list of the top 12 tougher SL cards (regardless of backs) in order of scarcity......

Foster
Paige
Fritz
Revelle
Hart (Little Rock)
Manion
Breitenstein
Greminger
Ellam
Reagan
Kiernan
LaFitte

Some of you may differ, and I welcome any debate.


Regarding the very tough Brown HINDU backs (possible on the 1st 42 players in this series). The first 42 SL cards were issued
shortly after the general 150 Series cards were available (Spring of 1909). This fact is confirmed by the date of the Charleston
players mentioned in the above story. The very 1st SL cards were printed with the HINDU backs.

There are 34 of the 42 SL cards that have been confirmed with the HINDU back. The following 8 have not......

Hart (Little Rock)....No Print
Hart (Montgomery).....No Print
King......No Print
Lentz......No Print
Orth.......Possible Print
Rockenfeld......Possible Print
Seitz......Possible Print
Westlake......No Print


TRIVIA quiz......

In this HINDU adv. three SL cards are displayed....one is incorrectly pictured....who will be the 1st one to identify this error ?

And, who is the actual BB subject shown ? ?





TED Z
Scot,

You might be on to something. It may very well be that the eight Hindu no-prints and the commonness of King and Westlake are related.

If I can use your data from the 3rd edition of Inside T206 to make the case...

Here are the eight no-print candidates and their rank in terms of commonness among the 42 Southern, Virginia, and South Atlantic Leaguers:

Westlake = 1/42 (easiest to find out of the 42 cards)
Seitz = 3/42
Rockenfeld = 4/42
Hart (Montgomery) = 5/42
Orth = 7/42
King = 8/42
Lentz = 17/42
Hart (Little Rock) = 37/42 (sixth most difficult to find)


Lentz and Hart (LR) are outliers here, but it's rather interesting, I think, that Westlake, Seitz, Rockenfeld, Hart (M), Orth, and King are all among the eight easiest cards to find. Which cards are most common or most scarce is a bit fuzzy to figure out, but there's at least a sense that the easiest to find also happen to not have been printed with Hindu backs. In general. The Texas Leaguers aren't so neat though, and if there's a connection between these eight cards and the six Texas Leaguers, their relative commonness doesn't seem to be part of it.

As I mentioned somewhere above, Orth left his team in mid July, so it would seem odd that his card would be a holdover for a longer print run. But T206 is full of bigger oddities.

Jamie
Last edited by jimonym on December 16th, 2008, 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: March 19th, 2002, 2:59 am

December 16th, 2008, 2:12 pm #38

I do not think that too many Net54ers will argue with me that Eddie Foster is probably the toughest of the 48 cards in the
Southern League (SL) series. It seems that all SL players were not equally printed.
First, here are the four different SL represented......

1st release......with Brown HINDU, OLD MILL, PIEDMONT backs

South Atlantic League (10 subjects)
Southern League (20 Subjects)
Virginia League (12 Subjects)

2nd release......with OLD MILL, PIEDMONT backs

Texas League (6 Subjects)

Now, a close 2nd in scarcity to Foster is teammate, George Paige. These 2 players were on Charleston of the So. Atl. Lge.
This League had difficulties which resulted in a "split-season". The 1st half of the 1909 season was won by Chattanooga.
On 7/5/09 the Charleston franchise became the Knoxville team. I'd venture to say that this change caused Foster and Paige
to be short-printed.
In addition, Kiernan and Manion were involved in mid-season trades, as a consequence of the changes in this League. These
two are also tougher to find than most of the other SL cards. At the end of the 1909 season Chattanooga and Augusta (the
winner of the 2nd half) played a League Series and Chattanooga won 4 of the 7 game series.



From the Virginia Lge. Revelle is tough to find. He was an outstanding pitcher for Richmond in 1909 with a 29-11 W-L record.

From the Southern League, the three New Orleans guys are quite tough....Breitenstein, Fritz, and Reagan.

To summarize, here is my list of the top 12 tougher SL cards (regardless of backs) in order of scarcity......

Foster
Paige
Fritz
Revelle
Hart (Little Rock)
Manion
Breitenstein
Greminger
Ellam
Reagan
Kiernan
LaFitte

Some of you may differ, and I welcome any debate.


Regarding the very tough Brown HINDU backs (possible on the 1st 42 players in this series). The first 42 SL cards were issued
shortly after the general 150 Series cards were available (Spring of 1909). This fact is confirmed by the date of the Charleston
players mentioned in the above story. The very 1st SL cards were printed with the HINDU backs.

There are 34 of the 42 SL cards that have been confirmed with the HINDU back. The following 8 have not......

Hart (Little Rock)....No Print
Hart (Montgomery).....No Print
King......No Print
Lentz......No Print
Orth.......Possible Print
Rockenfeld......Possible Print
Seitz......Possible Print
Westlake......No Print


TRIVIA quiz......

In this HINDU adv. three SL cards are displayed....one is incorrectly pictured....who will be the 1st one to identify this error ?

And, who is the actual BB subject shown ? ?





TED Z
Hi Jamie, Scot, and Ted,
I have always believed that the upcoming release of the T210 series had quite a bit to do with the shortage of many of the Southern League cards. I haven't had time to track every card, but when you consider that the 8 Southern League "proofs" were almost all issued in the T210 series it seems to make sense. Of the 8 proofs, 6 of these guys were star players in 1909, making them a shoe in for the T210 set, but a little late for inclusion in the T206 set that consisted of mostly poses and players from the 1908 season.
Let's take a closer look at the 8 "proofs":
Alcock Chattanooga
Meek Chattanooga
Lee Jacksonville
Roth Jacksonville
Dwyer Jacksonville
Osteen Montgomery
Pepe Montgomery
Mayberry Danville


The Chattanooga team which entered the South Atlantic Association in 1909 is probably the best example; they dominated the first half of 1909 with a 45-16 record, but aren't represented in the T206 set at all. Obviously, the proofs of Alcock, who batted .349 in 1909 finishing 2nd in the League to Joe Jackson, and Meek another Chattanooga slugger would have been excellent choices for a "second SL series".

The Jacksonville club dominated the league in 1908 and thus have many players included in the T206 set, but in early 1909 many of the stars were traded and the club fell to 7th place. The only remaining veterans from the Jacksonville squad in 1909 were Lee, Roth, and Dwyer who were probably also slated for a "second SL series"...

I don't have time to finish my thoughts on the other 3, but will try to get around to it this afternoon.
Anyone interested, should read Olbermann's article in the December 2000 issue of VCBC, as it is a wealth of information.

Be well Brian
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Joined: April 6th, 2005, 9:38 pm

December 16th, 2008, 3:44 pm #39

I do not think that too many Net54ers will argue with me that Eddie Foster is probably the toughest of the 48 cards in the
Southern League (SL) series. It seems that all SL players were not equally printed.
First, here are the four different SL represented......

1st release......with Brown HINDU, OLD MILL, PIEDMONT backs

South Atlantic League (10 subjects)
Southern League (20 Subjects)
Virginia League (12 Subjects)

2nd release......with OLD MILL, PIEDMONT backs

Texas League (6 Subjects)

Now, a close 2nd in scarcity to Foster is teammate, George Paige. These 2 players were on Charleston of the So. Atl. Lge.
This League had difficulties which resulted in a "split-season". The 1st half of the 1909 season was won by Chattanooga.
On 7/5/09 the Charleston franchise became the Knoxville team. I'd venture to say that this change caused Foster and Paige
to be short-printed.
In addition, Kiernan and Manion were involved in mid-season trades, as a consequence of the changes in this League. These
two are also tougher to find than most of the other SL cards. At the end of the 1909 season Chattanooga and Augusta (the
winner of the 2nd half) played a League Series and Chattanooga won 4 of the 7 game series.



From the Virginia Lge. Revelle is tough to find. He was an outstanding pitcher for Richmond in 1909 with a 29-11 W-L record.

From the Southern League, the three New Orleans guys are quite tough....Breitenstein, Fritz, and Reagan.

To summarize, here is my list of the top 12 tougher SL cards (regardless of backs) in order of scarcity......

Foster
Paige
Fritz
Revelle
Hart (Little Rock)
Manion
Breitenstein
Greminger
Ellam
Reagan
Kiernan
LaFitte

Some of you may differ, and I welcome any debate.


Regarding the very tough Brown HINDU backs (possible on the 1st 42 players in this series). The first 42 SL cards were issued
shortly after the general 150 Series cards were available (Spring of 1909). This fact is confirmed by the date of the Charleston
players mentioned in the above story. The very 1st SL cards were printed with the HINDU backs.

There are 34 of the 42 SL cards that have been confirmed with the HINDU back. The following 8 have not......

Hart (Little Rock)....No Print
Hart (Montgomery).....No Print
King......No Print
Lentz......No Print
Orth.......Possible Print
Rockenfeld......Possible Print
Seitz......Possible Print
Westlake......No Print


TRIVIA quiz......

In this HINDU adv. three SL cards are displayed....one is incorrectly pictured....who will be the 1st one to identify this error ?

And, who is the actual BB subject shown ? ?





TED Z
I think you are onto to something here with the 1910 OLD MILL Series. And, if you don't mind, I'll add the
1910 RED SUN (T211) Series into this mix.

I think you will find it interesting that the Senator Russell original T-card collection (on display at the Univ.
of Georgia) includes a huge amount of T210's (besides his 497-card T206 set which includes a Joe Doyle
error card and the Ty Cobb back card).

The 75 Subjects in the Red Sun set include many of the So. Lgers in the T210 Series 8 issue....neither of
these sets include the following:

Hart (Little Rock)
King (Danville)
Lentz (Little Rock)
Orth (Lynchburg)
Rockenfeld (Montgomery )
Westlake (Danville)

Very interesting....however, Seitz is in these sets....I still think there is a possibility of finding Seitz with
a HINDU back.

Great stuff, Brian.

TED Z

Last edited by tedzan on December 16th, 2008, 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: October 28th, 2003, 11:26 pm

December 16th, 2008, 4:03 pm #40

I do not think that too many Net54ers will argue with me that Eddie Foster is probably the toughest of the 48 cards in the
Southern League (SL) series. It seems that all SL players were not equally printed.
First, here are the four different SL represented......

1st release......with Brown HINDU, OLD MILL, PIEDMONT backs

South Atlantic League (10 subjects)
Southern League (20 Subjects)
Virginia League (12 Subjects)

2nd release......with OLD MILL, PIEDMONT backs

Texas League (6 Subjects)

Now, a close 2nd in scarcity to Foster is teammate, George Paige. These 2 players were on Charleston of the So. Atl. Lge.
This League had difficulties which resulted in a "split-season". The 1st half of the 1909 season was won by Chattanooga.
On 7/5/09 the Charleston franchise became the Knoxville team. I'd venture to say that this change caused Foster and Paige
to be short-printed.
In addition, Kiernan and Manion were involved in mid-season trades, as a consequence of the changes in this League. These
two are also tougher to find than most of the other SL cards. At the end of the 1909 season Chattanooga and Augusta (the
winner of the 2nd half) played a League Series and Chattanooga won 4 of the 7 game series.



From the Virginia Lge. Revelle is tough to find. He was an outstanding pitcher for Richmond in 1909 with a 29-11 W-L record.

From the Southern League, the three New Orleans guys are quite tough....Breitenstein, Fritz, and Reagan.

To summarize, here is my list of the top 12 tougher SL cards (regardless of backs) in order of scarcity......

Foster
Paige
Fritz
Revelle
Hart (Little Rock)
Manion
Breitenstein
Greminger
Ellam
Reagan
Kiernan
LaFitte

Some of you may differ, and I welcome any debate.


Regarding the very tough Brown HINDU backs (possible on the 1st 42 players in this series). The first 42 SL cards were issued
shortly after the general 150 Series cards were available (Spring of 1909). This fact is confirmed by the date of the Charleston
players mentioned in the above story. The very 1st SL cards were printed with the HINDU backs.

There are 34 of the 42 SL cards that have been confirmed with the HINDU back. The following 8 have not......

Hart (Little Rock)....No Print
Hart (Montgomery).....No Print
King......No Print
Lentz......No Print
Orth.......Possible Print
Rockenfeld......Possible Print
Seitz......Possible Print
Westlake......No Print


TRIVIA quiz......

In this HINDU adv. three SL cards are displayed....one is incorrectly pictured....who will be the 1st one to identify this error ?

And, who is the actual BB subject shown ? ?





TED Z


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