Aftermarket parts just don't fit as well on Chris Craft motors as Chris Craft parts do !

Aftermarket parts just don't fit as well on Chris Craft motors as Chris Craft parts do !

Paul
Paul

December 19th, 2011, 5:55 pm #1

Well Chris Craft had a rather tight clearance between their exhaust system and their Paragon transmission and motor
mounting assembly, which is about as "industrial" in concept and execution as anything I've seen. Iron was obviously cheap back then !!!



Note the clearance between the exhaust outlet and the mount.

Well now enter Paul and his nifty hot rod aluminum headers he's been keeping around for nearly 15 years.....why you might ask? Well
I initially got them for my 38 Express and when I started sizing up the situation for action, it was rather obvious that my hot rod headers
just would not fit the Chris Craft system, so I either had to adjust the header system or fabricate new mounts, and it was a whole lot easier
to just do nothing. So as a result nothing got done until late in the year 2011 and now the same issue has manifest itself again.

Well the equation has changed a bit because I am bolting up a Borg Warner instead of the Paragon you see in the photo above, but....... I still
have a low slung header system. The solution was to find these low profile mounts that fit up to the Borg Warner system. If they don't work
you'll see them for sale on Ebay some day, I'll recover part of my cost, probably have to eat the shipping but hey, with old boat restoration
there are some risks now and then (smiling now) We'll see how it goes.....these are the most compact mounts I could find for the Borg Warner
Velvet Drive, and they are reversible allowing a little more flexibility.






Here is an old photo showing the new header being held on with one bolt for general fit-up and planning.


This system drops much lower than the original CC system, which is very compact. I need to get some updated photos of the motor,
it is looking a little better recently

Regards,

Paul





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Joined: September 11th, 2010, 12:38 pm

December 20th, 2011, 2:17 pm #2

Paul,
The mounts you are showing are Chrysler and you shouldn't have any problem selling them if they don't work. Just look under Chrysler parts and you will see what I mean.

Merry Christmas,
Rich
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Norm
Norm

December 20th, 2011, 2:40 pm #3

Well Chris Craft had a rather tight clearance between their exhaust system and their Paragon transmission and motor
mounting assembly, which is about as "industrial" in concept and execution as anything I've seen. Iron was obviously cheap back then !!!



Note the clearance between the exhaust outlet and the mount.

Well now enter Paul and his nifty hot rod aluminum headers he's been keeping around for nearly 15 years.....why you might ask? Well
I initially got them for my 38 Express and when I started sizing up the situation for action, it was rather obvious that my hot rod headers
just would not fit the Chris Craft system, so I either had to adjust the header system or fabricate new mounts, and it was a whole lot easier
to just do nothing. So as a result nothing got done until late in the year 2011 and now the same issue has manifest itself again.

Well the equation has changed a bit because I am bolting up a Borg Warner instead of the Paragon you see in the photo above, but....... I still
have a low slung header system. The solution was to find these low profile mounts that fit up to the Borg Warner system. If they don't work
you'll see them for sale on Ebay some day, I'll recover part of my cost, probably have to eat the shipping but hey, with old boat restoration
there are some risks now and then (smiling now) We'll see how it goes.....these are the most compact mounts I could find for the Borg Warner
Velvet Drive, and they are reversible allowing a little more flexibility.






Here is an old photo showing the new header being held on with one bolt for general fit-up and planning.


This system drops much lower than the original CC system, which is very compact. I need to get some updated photos of the motor,
it is looking a little better recently

Regards,

Paul




G'day Paul

Maybe these pics will help. Chrysler 318 with a BW gear.




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Paul
Paul

December 20th, 2011, 2:43 pm #4

Paul,
The mounts you are showing are Chrysler and you shouldn't have any problem selling them if they don't work. Just look under Chrysler parts and you will see what I mean.

Merry Christmas,
Rich
Rich you spotted it for sure, they came off a Chrysler installation, but they will fit a variety of transmissions incuding the one I am using. What I like about them is the fact that they achieve about the same sitting point without the tall obstrucive loop of the Paragon/Chris Craft system. As I noted,
time will tell if these are the right choice. Thanks for the tip

Regards,
Paul
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Paul
Paul

December 20th, 2011, 2:54 pm #5

G'day Paul

Maybe these pics will help. Chrysler 318 with a BW gear.




Yes, looking good, there is still hope. This is a case where "almost" is not good enough.

Regards,

Paul
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Paul
Paul

December 23rd, 2011, 9:53 pm #6

I am enjoyig working on this motor in the evenings, sometimes I only work for ten
minutes but it is moving forward. On two occasions yesterday I made special trips
out for various things I needed, as I discovered the need. I replaced the old corroded
intake bolts with stainless steel. As you can see the intake is now mounted nicely
and torqued down to 25 pounds against Felpro gaskets and the gray high torque RTV at
end seals. The cork end seals were not used based upon the advice from Edelbrock and
numerous other sources I've heard over the years. Many people just use the RTV as it is
a more reliable seal and it won't slide out of alignment during the placement of the
intake. Thank God this intake was aluminum, because 25 pounds was fine but 80 pounds
would have been a real chore. George Klein and Eric Jensen, guys you have my respect
for tossing those iron intakes around. This one has the EGR blocked off abd the gasket
was specific for blocked off EGR too, just compressed up against the port.

Oil cooler and rear motor mounts are in, and the exhaust log and riser are fitted up
finger tight without gaskets just to check clearances, etc. Today I drilled the riser
and screwed in the studs into the back of the exhaust log, easier said than done by the
way. The gasket that came with the exhaust system is crap so I will be making up a pair
of them myself out of gasket material.








Back in the early days many inline motors had the intake and exhaust on the same side of
the cylinder head. Then inline motors got "crossflow heads". All V8 motors have a nice
crossflow design, fuel just drops into the cylinders and the exhaust just blows out the
other side.....very efficient.



I'll do another valve clearance check, install the distributor and coil.
I have another riser to drill this afternoon. Then I'll turn to assembling the cooling
system, and that reminds me I need to install a new impeller in that sea water pump. I
need some more gasket material, as it is easier to make my own and the material is thicker
too. I also have to pick up some threaded brass water fittings, most of these are necked
down and reduce flow but there is a "full flow" version available and those are what I will
be using.

I'll be doing a test fit for the transmission in a few days, I'll be traveling tomorrow
but maybe later in the week. I finally broke down and installed foam rubber on the
underside of my engine hoist.....I have a very hard head I guess, as it took several
hits until I finally got the message. Ouch!

I'm using a 8-degree phenolic wedge for heat isolation and to compensate for the fact
that the motor is in a runabout and my previous experience with a setup like this discovered
the weighted llinks on an Edelbrock carb need a little help in the form of a wedge to make
the throttles open cleanly. I have a complete posting on this issue if anyone is intrested
which I did back when I converted my 327 Skiff to an Edelbrock 1409.

Springtime is just around the corner!


Regards,

Paul















































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Paul
Paul

December 24th, 2011, 12:55 am #7

Most people know I am a pretty big proponent of originality. Looking at this motor I suppose some people think I have sold out, but no! Remember how this project happened in the first place and it makes more sense.

The hull came from the East Coast compliments of Jerry Namken. Two 427 motors also came from the East Coast about ten years ago. So here I am with a pair of unused big dogs and a 23 Lancer inboard hull with no motor. I could have prepared the motor exactly as it came from Chris Craft, but I also had a pair of aluminum 427 exhaust systems I have had for almost 15 years, and it was an opportunity to use these parts on a project that would become a great retro rod. The boat will be kept 100% Chris Craft in every way, steering wheel, instruments, etc. I may do something minor with wood trim inside but nothing will be done that can not be easily undone to keep originality. In fact, the motor could bolt up those iron exhaust and riser pieces but remember I am pulling 250 pounds of iron off this rig, inclucing the heat exchanger and surge tank. The whole idea of using a big block in a 23 in the first place is to shed off enough weight to make the big motor match the weight of the original iron small block installation. Externally this boat will look 100% stock except for larger tailpipes.

The boat will first be commissioned mechanically and once I get it sorted out then it will undergo the full remainder of the cosmetic treatment. We have seats, etc. so all of that will come in due time. The motor won't go into the bilge until such time it is fully primed and painted Psych Ward White.

Everything about this motor installation is custom. There are so many little things that must be tended to, fixed, or adapted. Those aluminum headers for instance, have caused a lot of issues already, and I have to tell you the way they bolt together with threaded studs going into the header and then through bolting the riser, gives way little clearance for a bolt to fit in there to secure the riser to the header. Even then I will most likely have to cut off the end of the threaded stud because there is a potential for interference (stud too long) but we'll see how the gasket(s) work. I guess this project is a little bit of mix between Race Boat Regatta and Classic Boat Shows, and of course it all comes back to the Chris Craft Commander. When done, the Lancer will take a proud place next to our 38 Commander Express with 427 power.





These boats are perfectly fine with small block power, using a 1.5:1 gear reduction, they can obtain speeds in the mid 30s and perhaps with some tweaks into the low 40s. This project of mine is not a gofast boat, it is intended to be a medium fast commuter capable of maintaining moderate speed when fully loaded with people over long distances without any stress on the equipment. Chris Craft installed the 427 in this hull for two years, with V-drive in the 23 Commander. At that point I surmise they decided against more 427 installations due to the fact that the dubious group called "the general public" would try to prove a point with them and Chris Craft would get callbacks. In addition CC had a policy of building safe family boats and not racing boats, however, the XK boats really pulled against the grain with that concept.

Back in the saddle again, so much more fun than remodeling a house or cottage. By the way, shooting a finishing nail through a finger, doing drywall work, and crawling under the house cutting and welding plastic drain lines never really was my idea of having fun anyway. I'm looking forward to slapping a windshield on the Skiff and running it all year long, and commissioning the 23 sometime later in the season.

Regards,

Paul










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Jerry
Jerry

December 24th, 2011, 4:22 pm #8

I am enjoyig working on this motor in the evenings, sometimes I only work for ten
minutes but it is moving forward. On two occasions yesterday I made special trips
out for various things I needed, as I discovered the need. I replaced the old corroded
intake bolts with stainless steel. As you can see the intake is now mounted nicely
and torqued down to 25 pounds against Felpro gaskets and the gray high torque RTV at
end seals. The cork end seals were not used based upon the advice from Edelbrock and
numerous other sources I've heard over the years. Many people just use the RTV as it is
a more reliable seal and it won't slide out of alignment during the placement of the
intake. Thank God this intake was aluminum, because 25 pounds was fine but 80 pounds
would have been a real chore. George Klein and Eric Jensen, guys you have my respect
for tossing those iron intakes around. This one has the EGR blocked off abd the gasket
was specific for blocked off EGR too, just compressed up against the port.

Oil cooler and rear motor mounts are in, and the exhaust log and riser are fitted up
finger tight without gaskets just to check clearances, etc. Today I drilled the riser
and screwed in the studs into the back of the exhaust log, easier said than done by the
way. The gasket that came with the exhaust system is crap so I will be making up a pair
of them myself out of gasket material.








Back in the early days many inline motors had the intake and exhaust on the same side of
the cylinder head. Then inline motors got "crossflow heads". All V8 motors have a nice
crossflow design, fuel just drops into the cylinders and the exhaust just blows out the
other side.....very efficient.



I'll do another valve clearance check, install the distributor and coil.
I have another riser to drill this afternoon. Then I'll turn to assembling the cooling
system, and that reminds me I need to install a new impeller in that sea water pump. I
need some more gasket material, as it is easier to make my own and the material is thicker
too. I also have to pick up some threaded brass water fittings, most of these are necked
down and reduce flow but there is a "full flow" version available and those are what I will
be using.

I'll be doing a test fit for the transmission in a few days, I'll be traveling tomorrow
but maybe later in the week. I finally broke down and installed foam rubber on the
underside of my engine hoist.....I have a very hard head I guess, as it took several
hits until I finally got the message. Ouch!

I'm using a 8-degree phenolic wedge for heat isolation and to compensate for the fact
that the motor is in a runabout and my previous experience with a setup like this discovered
the weighted llinks on an Edelbrock carb need a little help in the form of a wedge to make
the throttles open cleanly. I have a complete posting on this issue if anyone is intrested
which I did back when I converted my 327 Skiff to an Edelbrock 1409.

Springtime is just around the corner!


Regards,

Paul














































Paul and All:
Now you have the big dog looking good! As it starts to take shape, I am starting to worry. You may have to put a set of ailerons on her just to keep her in the water.

Keep it up, this is the fun part.
Jerry
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Paul
Paul

December 25th, 2011, 2:56 am #9

I always intended to have this project up to a high standard but when I got that Borg Warner from Ron Holloway (Mr. Borg Warner..........see our preferred vendor list) that darn thing looked like it belonged in a museum and that set the bar right there. So the motor had to look as good as Ron's transmission, ha! The motor is being given a "boat show" grade of finish and overall attention to details. It will be able to back up the good looks too.

The rest of the boat will follow at that same standard. I am assembling the cooling system now, which is somewhat modified from the original system due to a few things that are different with my aluminum pieces such as the fact that the aluminum headers are a one way flow and not the two way flow of the original cc iron. I am getting the right full flow fittings in brass, making up some gaskets, sealing everything up, working on the ignition system, and then we'll do a test on the neighbors to see if they can remain unaffected

I expect that motor to bellow like no tomorrow down the valley behind our ridgetop house. I will be sure to get it all on video.

best,

Paul





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Glenn
Glenn

December 25th, 2011, 8:02 pm #10

Paul,
Nice job, I can't wait see your drive system and the Lancer in action. What fun projects these boats are?
I find setting high standards with these kind of projects comes easy.

Paul, I would like to share a non CC project that I'm working on, but because it's a non CC I don't what to rock the boat. ha ha ha
It is a car my dad built back in the early 90's, and I'm rebuilding it, needless to say I'm proud of it.

Glenn
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