The third version of Jack Kaufman's "That's My Weakness Now."

The third version of Jack Kaufman's "That's My Weakness Now."

Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

February 3rd, 2011, 2:53 pm #1

Last edited by ahaim on February 3rd, 2011, 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Professor Hot Stuff
Professor Hot Stuff

February 7th, 2011, 2:07 am #2

I can't tell whether it's the same trumpeter but I'm wondering whether this third version is playing too fast b/c it runs for just 3 minutes and Edisons often run for 4 minutes or more. Do you think Jack sang it in the same key all three times? Does the Edison sound more natural slowed down some?
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

February 7th, 2011, 11:02 pm #3


I am guessing it should be slowed down by 20-25 % to sound right. Here it is slowed down by 22% so it lasts about 3min 52 sec. I used audacity to change tempo without changing pitch. I don't have software that changes tempo and pitch. Here is the slowed-down version.

bixography.com/JKaufmanWeakness7BlueBabiesSlowed22%.mp3

Better? I think so. Compare with original.

bixography.com/JKaufmanWeakness7BlueBabies.mp3

Albert

 

 

 

Albert

 
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John Rowland
John Rowland

February 8th, 2011, 1:26 pm #4

I like the slower version better, but you used software to slow it down 22% without changing pitch. If the record had been recorded in the vicinity of 61 rpm (the 22% reduction) and then played at 78 the pitch would have gone up. I don't have the ablilty to decipher notes by ear. I would be interested to know in which key the fast release plays and what key they would have had to play at 61 rpm to match the key at 78 rpm. Figuring out that key might make it easier to guess what the actual recording speed might have been.
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

February 8th, 2011, 2:19 pm #5


My understanding is that Edison records had a consistent speed of 80 rpm.  So using the pitch shift calculator, I entered 80 rpm as "current" and 97.6 rpm (80 + 22 % of 80)  as "goal." If (and we don't know that this is the case) the file sent by Professor Hot Stuff was obtained by playing the Edison at 97.6 rpm changing pitch correspondingly, the pitch would have changed by + 3.44 semitones. However, is it possible that the Professor's file was obtained by accelerating the tempo without changing pitch? Professor Hot Stuff, what is the source of the file you sent me? Can the musicians help with the keys of the two files, the "fast" version sent by Professor Hot Stuff and the slowed down I created using audacity? Are they the same? Different? If different, what are the keys?

I may have overdone it in terms of slowing down the tempo: +3.44 semitones seems an awfiul lot. I found an Edison recording by Billy Murray with the Seven Blue Babies. Available in the Edison Attic website. It is the first recording in

http://wfmu.org/playlists/shows/22002

The recording lasts for 3 min 6 sec.

Another one by the Seven Blue Babies , "A Precious Little Thing Called Love" the last  in

http://wfmu.org/playlists/shows/23826

It lasts for  3 min 20 sec.

I will try slowing down the original file by 5, 10 and 15  %. Will post the results later today.

Albert
Last edited by ahaim on February 8th, 2011, 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

February 8th, 2011, 5:43 pm #6


I slowed down the tempo by 10 % without changing pitch. Audacity software does that by using "Sound Touch" by Ollie Parviainen. Here is the result.

bixography.com/JKaufmanWeakness7BlueBabies10%.mp3

Sounds better than the original file sent by Professsor Hot Stuff.

I believe that the file sent by Professor Hot Stuff was played too fast. I don't know by how much. 10% sounds plausible  to me. The recording becomes 3 min 21 sec in length.

It is not worth taking time to do 5 and 15 %. With the changes by 10 and 22 % that I provided, we get a good feeling for what is going on.

If the original record (recorded at 80 rpm) had been played 10 % faster, allowing pitch to change, the pitch would have gone up by 1.6 semitone. At 5 % faster tempo, the pitch would have gone up by 0.84 semitone.

Does anyone have the original Edison? If so, can you make me an mp3 file and shoot it to me as an attachment to an email messsage? Thanks.

Albert

PS Note that in all my calculations, I take the speed of the original Edison recording as 80 rpm (supposedly, a reliable speed for Edisons) and then go on from there.
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

February 8th, 2011, 7:31 pm #7

Last edited by ahaim on February 8th, 2011, 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Evan
Evan

February 9th, 2011, 1:10 am #8

I am guessing it should be slowed down by 20-25 % to sound right. Here it is slowed down by 22% so it lasts about 3min 52 sec. I used audacity to change tempo without changing pitch. I don't have software that changes tempo and pitch. Here is the slowed-down version.

bixography.com/JKaufmanWeakness7BlueBabiesSlowed22%.mp3

Better? I think so. Compare with original.

bixography.com/JKaufmanWeakness7BlueBabies.mp3

Albert

 

 

 

Albert

 
Audacity will easily change pitch & tempo simultaneously for you - it's "Change Speed" in the Effect menu.

That's one way to do it, here's another one (which is the one I use):

Plug the appropriate numbers into this equation:
(Desired Speed / Original Sampled speed) x File's Sampling Rate.
eg. (75 / 78.26) x 44100 = 42262.5
(80 / 78.26) x 44100 = 45080 (exactly - provided you express 78.26 as 3600/46, which is what it actually is )

Then in Audacity, Click on your Audio Track's name (next to the little X that deletes your track), and choose Set Rate --> Other. Put your result from the above equation in the box that comes up (rounding to a whole number as appropriate). Your file will now sound the way you want it to, but if you intend to save it, go up to Tracks --> Resample and Resample to 44100 Hz for the sake of compatibility with, well, everything else.

(This is exactly the same process Change Speed uses but it just provides an interface for it. I prefer to do it manually, and have built an excel file where I just plug in the 3 known numbers and it works out the unknown number )
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Evan
Evan

February 9th, 2011, 9:07 am #9

Vince told us that Dornberger's "Tiger Rag" was recorded slower and played back faster: this resulted in an increase in pitch of one semitone.

Using the  pitch shift calculator, I computed that if played at 78.26 rpm (and thus one semitone higher), the original recording must have been done at 73.85. Therefore, the recording was originally made  (73.85-78.26)/78.26 x100 or 5.64 % slower than played back on a 78.26 rpm machine.

I recorded the file from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNNVSE0b_E0

Audacity has two very useful apps: change tempo without changing pitch, and changing pitch without changing tempo. So in a two step-manipulation (both using SoundTouch), it is possible to return the file to its original speed (and pitch). Step one: change tempo by -5.64 % withouth changing pitch. Step two: decrease pitch by one semitone without changing tempo. So here is the recording from you tube "played" at 73.85 rpm and a semitone lower, the way it was recorded originally.

bixography.com/TigerRagDornbergerSlower.mp3

Compare to the above file in youtube.

Vince, does the resulting, slowed-down and pitch-corrected file sound right to you?

Albert
I've just had a play around with this myself, and guess what key the Dornberger Tiger Rag is in when you run it at around 74 RPM (assuming that YouTube clip is 78.26 etc.) - why, it's in B Flat!

And guess what key the Timeless CD of the ODJB's Victor recording of Tiger Rag is in (of all my ODJB victors I don't have a copy of Tiger Rag) - why, B flat again! What a coincidence!

That Dornberger YouTube clip is in B-Natural when it's left raw, and I'm sure many musicians have said here before that B natural really isn't a nice key to play in. 5 sharps anyone? Two flats would be far more manageable.
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

February 9th, 2011, 1:31 pm #10

Audacity will easily change pitch & tempo simultaneously for you - it's "Change Speed" in the Effect menu.

That's one way to do it, here's another one (which is the one I use):

Plug the appropriate numbers into this equation:
(Desired Speed / Original Sampled speed) x File's Sampling Rate.
eg. (75 / 78.26) x 44100 = 42262.5
(80 / 78.26) x 44100 = 45080 (exactly - provided you express 78.26 as 3600/46, which is what it actually is )

Then in Audacity, Click on your Audio Track's name (next to the little X that deletes your track), and choose Set Rate --> Other. Put your result from the above equation in the box that comes up (rounding to a whole number as appropriate). Your file will now sound the way you want it to, but if you intend to save it, go up to Tracks --> Resample and Resample to 44100 Hz for the sake of compatibility with, well, everything else.

(This is exactly the same process Change Speed uses but it just provides an interface for it. I prefer to do it manually, and have built an excel file where I just plug in the 3 known numbers and it works out the unknown number )
For some reason, I was under the impression that the change in speed function in audacity could only be done between the standard values of 33, 45 and 78 rpm. I had not noticed the box "percent change." That makes it very easy. So now we have three procedures to modify speed (which changes both in tempo and pitch).

1. Use the "change speed" function. Enter the percent change desired (positive or negative number depending on whether you want to increase or decrease speed) and click OK.

2. Use Evan's procedure explained in his posting.

3. Use the two-stept process I explained in my previous posting. A. Using the "change tempo" (without changing pitch) function enter the percent change needed (positive or negative number) or length in seconds desired and click OK. B. Using the "change pitch" (without changing tempo) function, enter the desired change in semitones or percent change and click OK.

I believe the three procedures lead to the same result.

Albert
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