Star Dust by Bing Crosby

Star Dust by Bing Crosby

Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

January 25th, 2012, 1:49 pm #1


On Aug 19, 1931, Bing recorded Hoagy's immortal composition <em>Star Dust. </em>This is, to me, the definitive vocal version of the song.

www.jazz-on-line.com/a/mp3w/1931_067.mp3

I understand that the CD "THE CHRONOLOGICAL BING CROSBY 1930-31 (Jonzo JZCD-9)" includes <em>Star Dust</em> and comes with a 15-page booklet that provides detailed information about each recording session.  Does anyone have the CD? If so, could you copy the information about Star Dust? I am particularly interested in the names of the musicians (and instruments) that accompany Bing. Thanks.

Albert 
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Alan Matheson
Alan Matheson

January 27th, 2012, 5:09 am #2

I have this disc and it is excellent-like all the other ones in the Jonzo series. The liner notes are not specific about the exact personnel for this recording. They list a collective personnel for the "Brunswick Studio Orchestra-directed by Victor Young" as follows:
Sterling Bose, Frank Guarante, Bob Effros, Manny Klein (trumpets), Tommy Dorsey, Charlie Butterfield (trombones), Jimmy Dorsey, Chester Hazlett, Sid Stoneburn, Arnold Brilhart, Larry Binyon, Mutt Hayes (reeds), Joe Venuti, Harry Hoffman, Walter Edelstein, Lou Kosloff (violins), Joe Moresco, Arthur Schutt (piano), Eddie Lang, Carl Kress (guitar), Joe Tarto, Hank Stern, Artie Bernstein (sting bass/brass bass), Chauncey Morehouse, Stan King, Larry Gomar (drums)

For the "Star Dust" recording date (August 19, 1931; 11:00 am-2:15 pm), the annotator writes:
13 men used-2 tpt, tbn,3 sax, 3 vln, pno, gtr, tuba, drums
Musicians identified: Tommy Dorsey, Jimmy Dorsey, Arnold Brilhart, Harry Hoffman, Eddie Lang, Hank Stern, Larry Gomar

I wonder if the office of the American Federation of Musicians, Local 802 would still have documentation on this date and the exact personnel? Perhaps Mr. Giordano might be able to shed further light on this matter.
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

January 27th, 2012, 1:39 pm #3

Last edited by ahaim on January 27th, 2012, 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

January 27th, 2012, 4:33 pm #4

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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

January 27th, 2012, 9:41 pm #5

On Aug 19, 1931, Bing recorded Hoagy's immortal composition <em>Star Dust. </em>This is, to me, the definitive vocal version of the song.

www.jazz-on-line.com/a/mp3w/1931_067.mp3

I understand that the CD "THE CHRONOLOGICAL BING CROSBY 1930-31 (Jonzo JZCD-9)" includes <em>Star Dust</em> and comes with a 15-page booklet that provides detailed information about each recording session.  Does anyone have the CD? If so, could you copy the information about Star Dust? I am particularly interested in the names of the musicians (and instruments) that accompany Bing. Thanks.

Albert 
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">My Summary and Questions.


<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">I will accept the number of instruments quoted in Lairds book and in the Jonzo liners, 13. In detail
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">- trumpets<span>  </span>2
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">- trombone 1
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">- reeds 3 one clarinet, one alto sax, one tenor sax
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">- violin 3
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">- piano
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">- guitar
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">- brass bass
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">- drums
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">All discographies, when they identify the musicians, agree on the following.
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">Conductor Victor Young
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">trombone Tommy Dorsey
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">one of the violinists Harry Hoffman
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">guitar Eddie Lang
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">tuba Hank Stern
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">drums Larry Gomar
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">All discographies give the following unidentified instrumentalists
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">Violin two unidentified
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">Piano unidentified
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">Tenor sax unidentified
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">This leaves two violins, two reeds and two trumpets in question. I give up on the violins.
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">Trumpets the assignments:


<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">unidentified (Mitchell in Langs disco, Stockdale in Jimmys disco)
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">Guarente or Margulis (Stockdale in Tommys disco; Lord)
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">Guarente and Margulis (Stockdale in Thats It)
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">Alto sax the assignments


<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">Benny Krueger (Lord, Mitchell and Stockdale in both Dorsey discographies)
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">Jimmy Dorsey (Friedwald essay)
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">Arnold Brilhart (Jonzo booklet)
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">Clarinet the assignments


<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">Jimmy Dorsey (Lord, Mitchell, Stockdale in both Dorsey discographies, Jonzo)
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">Questions:


<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">One general. Do you agree that there are 13 instruments?
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">Specific.
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">1. Who are the trumpeters?
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">2. Who plays the alto sax solo?
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">3. Is Victor Young one of the violinists?
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">4. Who did the arrangement?
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">5. Who plays the celeste? The pianist? Do you hear the piano and the celest at the same time?
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">

I hear the guitar behind Bing's improvisations.
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">


 <p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">

Albert
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">

PS I think the first vocal version of Star Dust is from May 1, 1931, Mills Blue Rhythm Band with Chick Bullock.
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">

 
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;">

 

 
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

January 28th, 2012, 2:42 pm #6


How about the alto sax soloist in call and response with Bing? Is it

A. Jimmy Dorsey.
B.  Benny Krueger.
C. Arnold Brilhart.
D. None of the above.

One more. Do you hear a piano?

Come on guys!

Albert

 
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Alan Matheson
Alan Matheson

January 28th, 2012, 11:07 pm #7

Hi,
I had a listen to both the GRP/Decca (the "Legendary Years" box set) and the Jonzo Vol. 9 remasters of this song. I don't think that the alto saxophonist playing the call and response section is Jimmy Dorsey. Based on hearing Arnold Brilhart's lead alto work with Roger Wolfe Kahn, it doesn't sound like him either. Could be Bennie Krueger as the approach seems a little more in the Rudy Wiedoeft vein which is what I associate with Krueger's playing on the 1920 ODJB recordings.
I think I hear piano but very faintly. There's a spot, just after Bing sings "and each kiss and inspiration..." where I can hear some upper register chords, played in a descending sequence that sound like a piano. If there is piano, whoever it is was far from the mic and buried in the balance by the tuba and other rhythm section instruments.
It's a great performance, very heated compared to Bing's later version of the song. He was perfect singer to interpret Carmichael's music tribute to Bix and Louis Amstrong. The 2 different transfers were interesting to compare. The GRP/Decca being "harder" sounding with more surface noise but more detail in the higher frequencies and the Jonzo, much warmer with a bit of loss of the high frequencies.
Thanks, Albert, for starting an interesting thread!
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Alan Matheson
Alan Matheson

January 29th, 2012, 12:30 am #8

The line from the song quoted in my previous message should read "and each kiss an inspiration..."
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

January 29th, 2012, 12:40 am #9

Hi,
I had a listen to both the GRP/Decca (the "Legendary Years" box set) and the Jonzo Vol. 9 remasters of this song. I don't think that the alto saxophonist playing the call and response section is Jimmy Dorsey. Based on hearing Arnold Brilhart's lead alto work with Roger Wolfe Kahn, it doesn't sound like him either. Could be Bennie Krueger as the approach seems a little more in the Rudy Wiedoeft vein which is what I associate with Krueger's playing on the 1920 ODJB recordings.
I think I hear piano but very faintly. There's a spot, just after Bing sings "and each kiss and inspiration..." where I can hear some upper register chords, played in a descending sequence that sound like a piano. If there is piano, whoever it is was far from the mic and buried in the balance by the tuba and other rhythm section instruments.
It's a great performance, very heated compared to Bing's later version of the song. He was perfect singer to interpret Carmichael's music tribute to Bix and Louis Amstrong. The 2 different transfers were interesting to compare. The GRP/Decca being "harder" sounding with more surface noise but more detail in the higher frequencies and the Jonzo, much warmer with a bit of loss of the high frequencies.
Thanks, Albert, for starting an interesting thread!
.... it agrees with my own views. Seriously, I would arrive at Rudy Wiedoeft by the process of elimination, assuming that the saxist is one of the three mentioned in discographies. I doubt that it is Arnold Brilhart: he was an excellent ensemble and supporting player, but I can't think of Brilhart as a soloist. I have been listening (and admiring) Jimmy Dorsey for years; I am afraid I don't hear him in <em>Star Dust, </em>but I may be wrong<em>. [See below] </em>So Wiedoeft? I have problems. Wiedoeft was extremely active in the first half of the 1920s, but not so in the late 1920s. Moreover, Wiedoeft was into fast runs, lots of vibrato and histrionics. Listen to <em>Rubenola</em> and <em>Saxema</em> from 1927.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGIUXR2mmIA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzyQ5AkUHwA

Or <em>Sax-O-Phun </em>in 1925.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhnxCQPue4Q

It is hard for me to find a continuous line from what I hear in 1927 to what I hear in 1931. But I will readily admit that it is a long extrapolation from 1927 as main artist to 1931 as one of three supporting reed players getting a chance to do a bit of a dialogue with Bing. Somehow I feel that Wiedoeft was a bit passe in 1931. So, it is back to Jimmy. Could it be Jimmy? I have great respect and admiration for Will Friedwald, so I cannot dismiss his assignment of Jimmy as the soloist in <em>Star Dust. </em>But I must reiterate, I don't hear Jimmy. Alan, I also have a great respect for your musical insights. So I am in big trouble. Let me cop out by stating that I have to refresh my memory of what Jimmy sounded like in 1931. Let me immerse myself in Jimmy's sound in 1931. I will be back.

Albert
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Alan Matheson
Alan Matheson

January 29th, 2012, 4:30 am #10

I hope that I didn't mislead by mentioning Rudy Wiedoeft in connection with Bennie Krueger. The point I was trying to make was that the alto sax soloist on "Star Dust" uses a wide vibrato similar to Wiedoeft which is quite unlike Dorsey's or Brilhart's playing. The person playing the fills does sound closer to the sound of Bennie Krueger on the 1920 ODJB recordings. I'm not convinced that JD is the person playing the fills on this one!

Jimmy had a slightly harder, more focussed sound than our "obligato" alto player on "Star Dust" without this wide vibrato. You can heard this on this 1929 recording with Bing and Sam Lanin's "Famous Players" ("Anyone Can See With Half An Eye That I'm Crazy Over You"). JD plays some solos and some lead playing with the sax section
Here's a link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWqG4gSN8VE

Arnold Brilhart had a similar sound-maybe he influence JD to some extent? You can hear him leading the saxes around the 2'40" mark on this Roger Wolfe Kahn recording of "She's A Great, Great Girl". This is the alternate take first issued on the RCA Vintage series "Jack Teagarden" LP. It has one of Tea's best solos ever, I think, and it's a better solo than the one initially issued.
Here's the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XG0IqMUgVB8

Here's another R.G.Kahn recording ("Just The Same") which has a nice "Tram" like sax soli where you can hear Brilhart's lead playing very clearly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guzecsXvVMg
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