Discography: science, art, or witchcraft? I'm Coming Virginia by Bix and Tram.

Discography: science, art, or witchcraft? I'm Coming Virginia by Bix and Tram.

Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

April 10th, 2018, 9:49 pm #1

“I'm Coming Virginia” is a composition by Will Marion Cook and Donald Heywood.
 

 
It was recorded by Frank Trumbauer’s orchestra on May 13, 1927. Here are some record labels:
 
OKeh    
 
Odeon    
 
Brunswick   
 
Parlophone (pianist incorrectly identified)   
 
The record is among Bix’s most famous ones. Therefore, it is surprising that there is a bit of conflicting discographical data. The Trumbauer group was a band within the Goldkette band and most of the musicians are identified with a great deal of certitude:
Bix Beidebecke on cornet
Bill Rank on trombone
Frank Trumbauer on C-melody saxophone
Irving Riskin on piano
Eddie Lang on guitar
Chauncey Morehouse on drums
The arrangement is by Riskin.
 The uncertainty lies on the identity (and instrument) of additional reed men .
 
Here is what discographies tell us:
Delaunay - Don Murray, clarinet; Doc Ryker, saxophone.
Sudhalter and Evans - Don Murray, clarinet, baritone saxophone; Doc Ryker, alto saxophone.
Rust- Don Murray, clarinet; baritone saxophone; Doc Ryker, alto saxophone;.
Evans and Evans - Don Murray, clarinet, baritone saxophone; Doc Ryker, alto saxophone
Evans and Kiner – Jimmy.Dorsey, clarinet, alto saxophone; Doc Ryker, alto saxophone.
Castelli, Kaleveld and Pulsateri – Don Murray, clarinet; Red Ingle, saxophone.
Lion -  Don Murray, clarinet, tenor saxophone; Doc Ryker, alto saxophone.
Mosaic booklet - Don Murray, clarinet, tenor saxophone; Doc Ryker, alto saxophone.
 
Jimmy Dorsey and Red Ingle are aberrations. So I go with Tram, Murray and Ryker.
 
Finally my question. Listen to the introduction.
.

 
Is that a trio of C-mel, alto and tenor? I think so, but  please confirm. And I think I hear a clarinet at 2;48. Right?
 
 
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Joined: March 17th, 2018, 5:01 am

April 11th, 2018, 9:32 am #2

Definitely, clarinet notes around 2:48.

Several years ago, a Bixography poster noted the saxophone octave break point, as key to discerning which type of sax is heard, when it's in question... C-mel vs tenor especially.  That poster suggested also that among some of Tram's recorded playing, usually attributed C-mel, the instrument sometimes heard is alto instead.
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Joined: March 21st, 2018, 4:35 pm

April 11th, 2018, 4:09 pm #3

ahaim wrote: “I'm Coming Virginia” is a composition by Will Marion Cook and Donald Heywood.
 

 
It was recorded by Frank Trumbauer’s orchestra on May 13, 1927. Here are some record labels:
 
OKeh    
 
Odeon    
 
Brunswick   
 
Parlophone (pianist incorrectly identified)   
 
The record is among Bix’s most famous ones. Therefore, it is surprising that there is a bit of conflicting discographical data. The Trumbauer group was a band within the Goldkette band and most of the musicians are identified with a great deal of certitude:
Bix Beidebecke on cornet
Bill Rank on trombone
Frank Trumbauer on C-melody saxophone
Irving Riskin on piano
Eddie Lang on guitar
Chauncey Morehouse on drums
The arrangement is by Riskin.
 The uncertainty lies on the identity (and instrument) of additional reed men .
 
Here is what discographies tell us:
Delaunay - Don Murray, clarinet; Doc Ryker, saxophone.
Sudhalter and Evans - Don Murray, clarinet, baritone saxophone; Doc Ryker, alto saxophone.
Rust- Don Murray, clarinet; baritone saxophone; Doc Ryker, alto saxophone;.
Evans and Evans - Don Murray, clarinet, baritone saxophone; Doc Ryker, alto saxophone
Evans and Kiner – Jimmy.Dorsey, clarinet, alto saxophone; Doc Ryker, alto saxophone.
Castelli, Kaleveld and Pulsateri – Don Murray, clarinet; Red Ingle, saxophone.
Lion -  Don Murray, clarinet, tenor saxophone; Doc Ryker, alto saxophone.
Mosaic booklet - Don Murray, clarinet, tenor saxophone; Doc Ryker, alto saxophone.
 
Jimmy Dorsey and Red Ingle are aberrations. So I go with Tram, Murray and Ryker.
 
Finally my question. Listen to the introduction.
.

 
Is that a trio of C-mel, alto and tenor? I think so, but  please confirm. And I think I hear a clarinet at 2;48. Right?
 
 
Sure there is a clarinet playing at 2;48
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Joined: March 15th, 2018, 4:56 pm

April 11th, 2018, 10:03 pm #4

Um, I seem to have a missing post. I'll repeat...
I think I hear a baritone in the opening, based on tone-color more than anything else—my pitch sense, and familiarity with saxophone ranges not be up to knowing intuitively.

I think the trio is Trumbauer, Ryker, and Murray. Probably alto, C-melody, and tenor, though I suppose it could be two altos. I think the same trio plays the fills behind Bix's first chorus.

Clarinet is present at the beginning of the 'out' chorus, as early as 2:12.
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Joined: March 17th, 2018, 5:01 am

April 12th, 2018, 7:46 am #5

Fred wrote: Definitely, clarinet notes around 2:48.

Several years ago, a Bixography poster noted the saxophone octave break point, as key to discerning which type of sax is heard, when it's in question... C-mel vs tenor especially.  That poster suggested also that among some of Tram's recorded playing, usually attributed C-mel, the instrument sometimes heard is alto instead.
If your listening can identify (and often this is discernable aurally) when series of individual sax notes, whole or half step, passes over the register break point, that's a definite indicator of the sax type, because those register break points correspond (almost... half step below) to the 'key' of the instrument... alto Eb, C-mel C, tenor Bb...bari, bass, and soprano are distinquishable merely by range.  It's a great point, for definite sax identification on record.  I forget, if the writer cited a paper which proceded to identify records where Tram is heard on alto instead of the usually-listed C-melody, or whether it was a listening project he intended to carry through, toward the Bixography discog subject.
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