A Highly Bixian Norman Payne.

A Highly Bixian Norman Payne.

Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

August 22nd, 2017, 2:11 pm #1

A highly Bixian Norman Payne in a rare Fred Elizalde recording. One of many excellent youtube videos from our friend Nick Dellow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3M075HKoWA

Albert
Last edited by ahaim on August 22nd, 2017, 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mark Gabrish Conlan
Mark Gabrish Conlan

August 23rd, 2017, 4:01 pm #2

This post actually contains two takes of the same song by the same band, one on a conventionally pressed "Celebrity" label record and one on a "Filmophone" flexible record (presumably a plastic similar to the one used on the Hit-of-the-Week records in the U.S.). This is a quite good record all around, with Norman Payne sounding even more Bixian on the Filmophone version (heard in partial form, beginning with his solo) and other excellent solos, including a Trumbauer-ish alto sax (probably Max Farley), violin (probably George Hurley) and piano (Cecil Norman). Even the vocalist, Joe Leigh, swings (and sounds quite a lot like Al Bowlly).
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Nick Dellow
Nick Dellow

August 23rd, 2017, 8:13 pm #3

Though both Max Farley and Bobby Davis were in the Intimate Revue band, I think the alto sax soloist on "Singing My Way Round The World" is more likely to be home-grown, either Philip Buchel or Leslie Norman. For one thing, the Musicians Union was clamping down pretty hard on freelance American musicians by March 1930. Buchel would be the more obvious choice, given his pedigree as a hot soloist - active at the time as a freelance musician, notably with Spike Hughes at Decca - but it doesn't sound quite like the Buchel who recorded with Hughes. I think Les Norman might be a better match. Listen to Les Norman's alto solo towards the end of "Back Beats", made a few years earlier:-


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSUCX_DqJKQ


Hit-Of-The-Week is a card based record, similar to Durium over here (same company in fact - and the plastic coating used was also called "Durium"). Filmophone is a transparent all-plastic record. Many are now unplayable as they seem to be trying to return, albeit very slowly, to their former state - i.e. a blob! I bought one in the 1980s that was playable then (just) but it has now shrunk further and can't be played.

Now, as to whether the vocalist is Joe Leigh (listed as vocalist in The Intimate Revue programme) or Jack Hart (whose name is given on the Dominion issue as leader). Here is Joe Leigh singing with Alan Green's band:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k24QXq_sYnY


And here is Jack Hart:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADod8bV-on0


Last edited by ahaim on August 23rd, 2017, 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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David Tenner
David Tenner

August 29th, 2017, 1:51 pm #4

JACK HART AND HIS DANCE BAND
Jack Hart, v, dir: Norman Payne, t / Harry Hayes, as / Reg Pink, bar / Stanley Andrews, vn / Cecil Norman, p / Del
Giuda, sb / unknown d. London, e. March, 1930
291-1 Song Of the Dawn - vJH
Dn C-324
292-1 Happy Feet - vJH
DnC-323, Film 133
293-1 Crying For the Carolines - vJH
DnC-313, Film 134, Cel 4385
294-1 Singing My Way 'Round The World - vJH
DnC-313, Cel 4384
294-2 Singing My Way 'Round The World - vJH
Film 134
NOTE: Dominion C-313 as DEAUVlLLE DANCE ORCHESTRA, Filmophone 133 as AL SHAYNE'S HlGH STEPPERS,
134 as PHlL REGENT AND HlS ORCHESTRA, Celebrity 4384 and 4385 as CELEBRlTY DANCE ORCHESTRA.
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Nick Dellow
Nick Dellow

August 29th, 2017, 6:19 pm #5


Brian Rust is guessing at the personnel here. This is indicated by the fact that the personnel differs considerably between the various editions of "Jazz Records" and between "Jazz Records" and his "British Dance Bands On Record". Obviously, Brian did not have access to the original programme for The Intimate Review, which gives the personnel for the larger Elizalde band at the time and from which the personnel for this session was drawn.

In "British Dance Bands On Record" Rust gives the alto sax as Philip Buchel, the string bass as Spike Hughes, the baritone sax as Arthur Lally, the violinist as George Hurley, and no drummer at all! Compare that to the personnel he gives in "Jazz Records", which you have reproduced above. The only commonality is the listing of Norman Payne, Cecil Norman and Jack Hart in both discographies (he also lists Fred Elizalde as the arranger in "British Dance Bands On Record", but not in "Jazz Records")

One should treat Rust's personnel listings with a degree of caution. I'm not knocking him - he's still the best discographer in this field - but he sometimes guessed at sidemen and when he did so he rarely put question marks next to his guesses (actually, I think putting the guessed-at musicians in italics would have been a better idea). People often think that the personnel in his discographies came from the original recording ledgers. Apart from one or two rare exceptions, they did not. That Brian Rust was as accurate as he was regarding sidemen is a testament to his skilful judgement, as well as his tenacious research abilities, but he wasn't perfect by any means. Nor should we expect him to be. The compilation of discographies is by and large an inexact science and a case of "work in progress".

Incidentally, I neglected to mention that it was Rob Rothberg who sent me the scan of the original programme, so many apologies for that omission.
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Brad Kay
Brad Kay

August 29th, 2017, 10:41 pm #6

Indeed, a remarkable record showing the various Americans' powerful influence on their British counterparts. Norman Payne does his best Bix. He comes the closest in tone as anyone I've ever heard. I think he does best in the melody statement which opens the record. Very similar to Bix's opening statement on the Gang version of "Ol' Man River." However, Norman runs out of ideas and clean execution before he's done with the improvised solo, and it only gets worse on the Film-O-Phone take.

Max Goldberg gives Norman Payne a run for his Bixian money on the Fred Astaire English Columbia version of "Puttin' on the Ritz."

Thanks, Nick for letting us hear this!

-Brad K
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David Tenner
David Tenner

August 30th, 2017, 11:21 pm #7

Nick discussed this at http://www.network54.com/Forum/27140/message/1232280770 Whoever plays the trumpet solo in "A Dicky-Bird Told Me," it's one of his best! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLwC3QdOhdo

It's sort of the British equivalent of the "Is it Pee Wee Russell or Fud Livingston?" question in US recordings...
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Nick Dellow
Nick Dellow

August 31st, 2017, 12:21 pm #8


Emrah's YouTube upload is take 2. Here is take 1 for comparison:-


http://picosong.com/wsBCX/


I think take 2 has the edge, at least as far as the solo is concerned. Take 1 sounds ever so slightly more Goldberg-ish to my ears.





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David Tenner
David Tenner

August 31st, 2017, 2:48 pm #9

They both lived pretty long lives (Goldberg died in 1990, Payne in 1992).

It is of course true that musicians sometimes don't remember who played in a particular session (especially if it was decades ago) and sometimes they clearly "remember" wrongly, but I would still be curious if they had been asked, and if so what answer (if any) they gave about this recording (and other disputed ones).

Incidentally, there are (sadly) no articles about either Goldberg or Payne in the New Grove Dictionary of Jazz.
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