"With carried arms"

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Greg Renault
Forum Rifleman
Greg Renault
Forum Rifleman
Joined: June 23rd, 2010, 2:37 am

January 7th, 2016, 6:42 pm #11

Eddie,
Here is a period picture of a sergeant at an alternate version of Advanced Arms, with the musket on the left side  (Atkinson, Royal Volunteers, 1798).  Your Crimean pic looks like someone in the same position, performing the salute under arms.



Messy, I know.  I've never seen manual exercise language that describes this alternate carry.  Atkinson illustrates the familiar right side version of Advanced Arms on plates 58, 59, and 60, so I don't think plate 74 is an error.  I suspect that it illustrates a "customary practice" (like Slope Arms or Trail Arms) that was not specifically described in the official manual exercise. Does anyone have anything more on this version of Advanced Arms?
Greg Renault
A soldier should be as attached to, and careful of, his musket, as his mistress. (G.O. 31st December 1788, Bombay Army)
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Greg Renault
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Greg Renault
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Joined: June 23rd, 2010, 2:37 am

January 8th, 2016, 8:10 pm #12

Having reread the Manual & Platoon exercises, I realize that my terminology in the above posts is not correct.  Upon closer reading it seems clear that the position of a soldier under arms is referred to in the manuals as carried arms, not that of "shouldered arms".  Examples from the 1804 M&PE:


[/u]

So "Shoulder Arms" is just the command to move from ordered arms to the standard carry, not the term for the carry itself.  Once arms are held at the shoulder in the basic position of a soldier under arms, they are said to be "carried".  Thus, when arms are in some alternate hold--sloped, supported, or advanced (for battalion companies)--the command to return to the standard carry is (duh!) "Carry Arms."  This seems to apply to both the battalion companies' left-shoulder carry, and the lights' and rifles' right shoulder carry.

Just picking nits here.  The main point still holds: that respect is signified by arms being carried.
Greg Renault
A soldier should be as attached to, and careful of, his musket, as his mistress. (G.O. 31st December 1788, Bombay Army)
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Greg Renault
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Greg Renault
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Joined: June 23rd, 2010, 2:37 am

September 8th, 2016, 8:03 pm #13

Here's another period illustration of the left-shoulder advanced arms carry with the barrel out.  This portrays a grenadier sergeant of the 7th Regt. (Royal Fuzileers) from the series drawn by E. Dayes, etched by Hodges, tinted by the young JMW Turner, and printed in London by Capt. James Hewgill in 1792. This image is in the Anne SK Brown collection.



I have yet to find a period description of this alternate carry.
Greg Renault
A soldier should be as attached to, and careful of, his musket, as his mistress. (G.O. 31st December 1788, Bombay Army)
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Eddie
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Eddie
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Joined: September 4th, 2010, 11:49 am

April 12th, 2017, 9:29 pm #14

Greg Renault:13434 wrote: 2. The next lower level of respect performed under arms is the salute. When the soldier is at the right shoulder light infantry/advanced arms carry, the left hand is brought over to the firearm on the right. This is done whenever a hand salute to the cap would otherwise be performed by a soldier not under arms. As this motion must be done from the position of shoulder arms, rifle and light infantry ORs that happen to be at Support Arms need to come to Shoulder Arms before they can salute. So they Carry Arms to come to the shoulder, then perform the salute. Conveniently the last motion of Carry Arms ("settle the Rifle firm against the shoulder") only needs to be held in order to perform a salute.

The equivalent salute for soldiers under arms from the battalion companies, whose carry is on the left, seems to be Recover Arms. As Eddie points out, this form of salute is also prescribed for rifles in the 1801 Green Book, but is supplanted by the left hand salute in the 1813 SOs of the 85th. I think this reflects a general, gradual trend in our period towards simplification.

That the Recover was used as a form of Salute with arms was unknown to me as it is part of the loading and firing procedure.
Suasso in his Treatise on the British Drill' 1816' describes the movement and use p 108;

"Turn the piece by a quick jerk of the left hand, so as to bring the guard to the front, and the lock at the height of the left shoulder , both hands seizing the firelock as it is turned, the right hand at the swell of the butt, and the left above the lock, the left elbow being bent. and the part of the arm between this elbow and the hand placed close along the piece, both thumbs pointing to the muzzle. It is in the position of Recover Arms that a soldier when with his firelock, is at all times to address himself and speak to an officer; and it is likewise the position taken when the command 'Recover Arms' is given as a preparative to the dismissal of a body of men."

Suasso further explains that this Recover differs from the 'make ready' Recover as in this case the firelock is placed in the hollow of the left shoulder not opposite the left side of the face.
"Far the calling bugles hollo,
High the screaming Fife replies,
Gay the files of scarlet follow:
Woman bore me, I will rise"
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JBristoll(60th)
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JBristoll(60th)
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Joined: February 7th, 2016, 6:22 pm

April 18th, 2017, 1:10 pm #15

The recover can also be found in the Egerton 1804 manual, Page 14 and Fig.2 Plate 7.
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Ben Townsend
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Ben Townsend
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Joined: November 19th, 2007, 9:35 pm

April 23rd, 2017, 7:27 am #16

Joe, are you referring to the 1804 M&PE? I think Greg is referencing the same one above. If you are working from an original copy, do me a favour and look at the trade ads in the back, if any. I collect info on titles published by Egerton, and sometimes books pop up in the blurb, that are not listed elsewhere. (Kelly's Buglehorn calls of the 95th, anyone?)
Colonel Lejeune
On the Imperial service
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JBristoll(60th)
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JBristoll(60th)
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Joined: February 7th, 2016, 6:22 pm

April 23rd, 2017, 3:38 pm #17

Ben, It's the Rifle manual and Firing,Illustrated by plates, 1804.
All I have are individual pictures of the main pages and the title page, no advertisements in the back I'm afraid.
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Eddie
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Eddie
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Joined: September 4th, 2010, 11:49 am

April 23rd, 2017, 5:34 pm #18

Standing Orders Royal Cornwall Militia 1808.

page 11

'Passing an officer with arms, they having their arms advanced will look him boldly in the face and strike the sling smartly with the left hand

Speaking to an officer , with arms they will 'recover'( this crossed out and 'carry' written over) and remain so while speaking. '
"Far the calling bugles hollo,
High the screaming Fife replies,
Gay the files of scarlet follow:
Woman bore me, I will rise"
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