In search of the "Belgic"

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Neibelungen
Forum Rifleman
Neibelungen
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Joined: November 5th, 2010, 11:37 am

July 12th, 2015, 11:09 pm #281

Something I always knew about but had not really considered  in it's practical implications,  was the  specification in regulations for the durability  of these caps.
If the leather and metal parts were to last 2 years and the felt  only  one,  then there was a process  of removing  the peak ( and  possibly the lining as well) from one cap  and transferring them to  another.
Certainly the way the  peak and  lining are  usually  stitched together would imply the lining has to  be removed for the peak to  be  extracted and  may perhaps explain why some  caps  have a separate binding to  the front band  of the raised plate compared to others who have a tape  continuing fully around the the whole hat and also  why some hats seem to have a separately constructed   lining to  the front of the sweatband from the rest  of the sweatband.
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Eddie
Forum Lieutenant
Eddie
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Joined: September 4th, 2010, 11:49 am

July 13th, 2015, 7:43 am #282

Neibelungen - looking at the circular of 18th March 1812 which introduced the new cap it was to be of superior quality to the old one and with the aid of its case was expected to last two years. The replacement of felt and leather at periods would have applied to the Stove pipe - but it still meant that the peak and sweatband would have had to be ripped out and replaced into a new felt body - which must have been done within the Regiment - quite a bit of work involved.

btw - I photocopied the original manuscript circular introducing the new cap and in the margin it is noted that it was circulated to the Infantry and Militia.
It does not say that Rifle and Light Infantry regiments were exempted from wearing the new cap !
"Far the calling bugles hollo,
High the screaming Fife replies,
Gay the files of scarlet follow:
Woman bore me, I will rise"
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John Waller
Forum Chosenman
John Waller
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Joined: December 10th, 2010, 10:54 am

July 13th, 2015, 9:34 am #283

The placement of the cord hooks is interesting and odd to say the least.

It would be interesting to know if they were from different hatters. What do the labels say?
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Neibelungen
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Neibelungen
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Joined: November 5th, 2010, 11:37 am

July 13th, 2015, 9:55 am #284

The  O/R's cords in the Celle photo's are certainly different.   I would  possible suspect a later replacement for display purposes  though  it doesn't rule out a more continental  style of manufacture.
The salient  point being the use  of cut woolen fringe to  the tassel  end ( ie  it's a number  of gathered ends bound together,  folded back  down in half and formed into a ball at the head) rather than a twisted bullion style woolen  loop.   The netting  is particularly primitive in execution too and generally corresponds to  a couple  of similar caps  in French  or Belgian collections.  It would also  explain why  the hooks are slightly displaced from the norm if the cords have been added  in as  later replacements

It doesn't rule out KGL using a more continental  style for the cords compared to  British,  but generally  Officer's caps seem to have followed english examples very closely.
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Eddie
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Eddie
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Joined: September 4th, 2010, 11:49 am

July 13th, 2015, 1:45 pm #285

What the Hatter's labels are would be interesting. I have never succeeded in getting a response from the museum on questions I have asked in the past.
From a previous image I have seen however part of one label ended 'bdin' perhaps Hobdin - there was a trader in London of that name I think in 1818 but what he sold I could not discover.

The presence of Hatters labels inclines me to think these are all Officer's caps and I agree Neibelungen that the white cords are suspect and perhaps a later addition.
"Far the calling bugles hollo,
High the screaming Fife replies,
Gay the files of scarlet follow:
Woman bore me, I will rise"
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Richard Warren
Forum Rifleman
Richard Warren
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Joined: April 26th, 2009, 7:05 pm

July 13th, 2015, 4:46 pm #286

Must be Arthur Hebden of Bretts, Judiest & Hebden (sometimes written Hibden), or plain Hebden & Co, army clothiers and suppliers, Parliament Street (or sometimes Parliament Square), London. Don't know much about the firm, but you come across the name in connection with contracts for clothing, accoutrements, knapsacks etc. Don't know if they did bespoke stuff for officers.

But, interestingly, it appears that "Mr Hebden the army clothier" was implicated in the massive and complicated scandal involving the Duke of York, his ex-mistress Mrs Clarke, corruption in the army, etc etc; Hebden was alleged to have received part of a 1000 pay off in connection with the paymastership of a battalion of the King's German Legion, and admitted to selling other commissions.

Not sure how he came to be in a position to do this, and I can't offhand find anything confirming that he was clothier to the KGL, but it seems a good bet.
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Eddie
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Eddie
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Joined: September 4th, 2010, 11:49 am

July 13th, 2015, 6:13 pm #287

Richard  - thanks - in an  earlier post Rob McNamara put up this link to the interior of the cap with the KGL white cords:

http://postimg.org/image/v88s7l5v7/
"Far the calling bugles hollo,
High the screaming Fife replies,
Gay the files of scarlet follow:
Woman bore me, I will rise"
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Richard Warren
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Richard Warren
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Joined: April 26th, 2009, 7:05 pm

July 14th, 2015, 3:15 pm #288

Thanks, I forgot the earlier post. Eddie, I think that's a match - the label has to read "Hebdin & Co /Parliament Street", surely?
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Eddie
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Eddie
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Joined: September 4th, 2010, 11:49 am

July 16th, 2015, 4:16 pm #289

Richard I reckon you could be right. The KGL were inquiring a while back about the maker - I will let them know.
"Far the calling bugles hollo,
High the screaming Fife replies,
Gay the files of scarlet follow:
Woman bore me, I will rise"
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Neibelungen
Forum Rifleman
Neibelungen
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Joined: November 5th, 2010, 11:37 am

July 17th, 2015, 3:00 pm #290

Off Topic a bit,

Was doing a general  search  about  Hebdin & co  and  pulled up  an interesting document that might have  odd fascinating snippets of info.

Not a source I've looked at before but has  amusing things like:

4th May  1809.  Paid  Messrs Hebdin & Co for water decks supplied to  the 12th Regt Dragoons  417 19 -

Or
July 6th   To T A Collins Esq Commissary General,  to be paid  over to  Messrs Pierce and Mr W Gilpin,  for 10,000 suits  of regimental  clothing provided and delivered to  the Storekeeper General for the  use  of the Army.

Journal of the House  of Commons  Vol 64  1809 p472

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=aRl ... Co&f=false

Might be  interesting to  see  what else  is  supplied  say from  1811 to  1815  and who  by etc.
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